5 Ways to Be a Team Player

Dan Hurst:

Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.

It’s Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. I’m Dan Hurst. Sitting over there is Matt McNaughton who is sitting in for Kyle Bueermann because, well, we don’t know where Kyle is.

Mark Clifton:

We don’t know where he is.

Dan Hurst:

It’s like, where’s Kyle?

Mark Clifton:

I don’t know.

Dan Hurst:

He’s not even texting us anymore. He’s ghosted us.

Hey, a few podcasts ago, we got to talking about leadership and we were talking about that you have this structure at your church set up where it’s all basically, you call everybody teams.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

Explain that a little bit.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, just team ministry. Again, part of this is I just think this is Ephesians. We’re called to equip the saints to the work of ministry. I look at eldership and I look at deacons and I look at just leadership in the church. And I think we’re at our best when we serve as teams of individuals with unique gifts, unique callings, and yet we joyfully submit to one another for the sake of something greater, something bigger. And I think that’s what you see in the early church. It’s what you see with the disciples. And quite frankly, we all know this. I mean, if you’re a sports person at all, I’m a big sports guy, the best teams win championships. You know what I mean? You could have a team with a couple of great individuals, but just because they’re great individuals doesn’t mean they’re a great team and doesn’t mean you’re going to win championships. You what I’m saying?

And so, a team mindset says this, whether it’s children’s ministry, youth ministry, your deacon ministry, man, we’re going to do this together. Jesus is the hero of this thing, not any of us individually. He’s the one who gets the glory. And yet we’ve been called to work together to submit to one another, to encourage one another, to sharpen one another for the sake of kingdom advancement and for the sake of greater ministry. So, the question then is this. Okay, if you’re going to have good teams in your church, healthy teams, strong teams, well, what makes a strong team player or team member?

Dan Hurst:

Well, let me throw a curveball at you, both of you, before we get into this because we’re going to get into these five ways to be a team player. How do you select a team? How do you select a good team? How do you start with a good team?

Mark Hallock:

Well, in some ways I would say these five things are not only how to be a good team player, these are the five things that I’m looking for if I’m building my team.

Mark Clifton:

And I want to be honest, I think sometimes, especially normative size pastors, a normative size pastor.

Dan Hurst:

That would be me.

Mark Clifton:

I’m a large pastor.

Dan Hurst:

Normative size. Normative means you weigh over 200 pounds.

Mark Clifton:

That’s right. So, that’s true. A pastor of a normative-sized church, church of under 100, let’s say. Sometimes, obviously it’s easier for us to do everything than to delegate it and work with people and they’ll let us do it. And sometimes we’re attracted to that. And I’ve always struggled with being a team player and I’m sitting here with three of the 14 on our team. And so I’ve just got to be honest with you, it’s not my strength at all. I’ve had to really work at it hard. My ministry of my life up until I went to Warnell 20 years ago, so for 30 years of my ministry, I was basically a church planter and I did the initial church planting.

Mark Hallock:

Right.

Mark Clifton:

I would go in where there was nothing and strategize community, cultivate a community, get to Bible study together, pull some people together and then turn it over to a founding pastor.

Mark Hallock:

And pass it off and go do that again.

Mark Clifton:

And so, when I’m doing all that, I’m really not in a team set. I’m in a Lone Ranger set, right? Well, the Lord then put me at Warnell for 10 years and those young elders kind of helped me do better, but I still had a problem with it. And now the Lord grew this thing at NAMB, this team I have, and any of you guys listening know that sometimes I ask for your opinion, but I don’t really want it. I want your affirmation of my decisions. And I just say that to say for some of us as pastors, being a team member, we have to work at it.

Mark Hallock:

Yes.

Mark Clifton:

It doesn’t come natural.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

We want to be in charge and we think that’s what it means and it doesn’t.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

And I have greatly limited my ability in my ministry because I am not the best team player.

Mark Hallock:

Say that again, and I appreciate-

Mark Clifton:

I’ve limited my ability because I’m not the best team player. And I’m not suggesting, “Well, that’s just the way I am. You got to learn to live with me.” I’m suggesting I wish I had developed earlier in my ministry a real team concept.

Mark Hallock:

That’s good, man.

Mark Clifton:

I would’ve been a better leader than I am now. Right now I’m a marginal leader. The success we have on our team is not because of me, it’s because I’ve surrounded myself with people who are team leaders and who are patient with me. You guys are extremely patient with me and I appreciate that. So, I just want to say that guys, you can learn to be a team player. I’ve learned over the years to be more and hopefully we’ll continue to do that, but it doesn’t come natural for a lot of us.

Mark Hallock:

I think that’s great though. That’s the way that you and I are wired differently. I’m naturally wired, but whoever you are listening, we all can grow in this and we need to grow in this for the sake of the body-

Dan Hurst:

Oh, you don’t become a leader and then stop learning.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Dan Hurst:

A good leader is constantly learning to lead, right?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

By the way, McNaughton just texted us and said even the Lone Ranger had Tonto.

Mark Hallock:

Well, that’s true. That’s a good point.

Dan Hurst:

And I wanted to thank Matt McNaughton for saying that along.

Mark Clifton:

Thank you, Matt.

Dan Hurst:

Growing up in Honduras, we used to laugh because the word for tonto in Spanish is the word for crazy. Tonto. All right, so let’s talk about these five ways to be a team player.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so here we go. I’ll read these and we can talk about it. So the first number one is this, being an effective communicator. Okay? And here’s what I mean. And by the way, let me just say this. In this whole conversation, we’re talking about how we as pastors and leaders, how we need to model this. We need to live this out. You’re not going to create a culture of good teams if you’re not a good team player.

Dan Hurst:

Absolutely.

Mark Hallock:

So, this applies to me-

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, we’re the model.

Mark Hallock:

… and us, that’s right. But then also these are five things that’ll apply to team members that we’re looking for on other teams within the church. So number one, effective communicator, a great team player listens well before speaking and communicates ideas with clarity and humility. They help keep everyone informed and moving in the same direction without creating unnecessary confusion, ego, or drama. Okay? So, it’s clear communication. I mean, I don’t know about you guys, but it’s really frustrating to be on a team where there’s not good communication.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

Or where there are expectations of me that are not communicated well. You know what I mean? And I don’t want to do that to somebody else. And so, clear communication is really, really important from everybody on the team. So, that’s that. Let’s move on.

Dan Hurst:

Do you challenge communication from your team?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. I mean, I think practically you need to figure out a system. So, this is why do we have a staff meeting every Wednesday from 9:30 to 11:00? It’s for clear communication. So, if you’re not having a regular say, and I don’t care if you have two people in your staff or three, this is where key leaders in our church, I have a standing meeting every week because again, one of our rules around Calvary is don’t assume anything ever. Don’t assume people know, don’t assume just because you had a conversation that they remember. Don’t assume they know exactly what they’re doing. So, this is where regular meeting times, even if it’s just a 15-minute check-in, “Hey, are you okay? Let’s talk about this.” Get in the habit of really good communication. You’re going to drive some people nuts, but I would rather drive people nuts and be really clear than be fuzzy and people get angry because they’re so confused and they don’t know what’s going on. Does that make sense?

Dan Hurst:

Mm-hmm.

Mark Hallock:

Okay, here’s number two.

Mark Clifton:

Okay. Let me give you the negative, the reason people don’t do that because this is where I’m coming from.

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Mark Clifton:

Sometimes I think I’ve told you, you should know.

Mark Hallock:

Right. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

If you don’t know, it’s not my problem.

Mark Hallock:

Right.

Mark Clifton:

That’s not a good team player.

Mark Hallock:

No. That’s the mindset though.

Mark Clifton:

That’s the mindset.

Mark Hallock:

I told you now it’s on you.

Mark Clifton:

And I’m saying guys, that’s me. That’s not right.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

But for you listening, if that’s who you are as a pastor, it’s not going to end well for you.

Mark Hallock:

No, I know. Because the thing is you’re not wrong in that, Clifton.

Mark Clifton:

No.

Mark Hallock:

The truth is you’re right.

Mark Clifton:

Right.

Mark Hallock:

The problem is we’re dealing with people like us-

Mark Clifton:

Exactly.

Mark Hallock:

… who forget stuff and have kids doing stuff and they’ve got a million things on their plate.

Mark Clifton:

Exactly.

Mark Hallock:

But you’re totally right. Here’s number two. Okay, reliable and accountable. So, this is what we’re looking for in good team players. In other words, they do what they say they will do and can be counted on to follow through.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah, this is really hurting me.

Mark Hallock:

I know. It hurts all of us. It hurts me too. It hurts me too. When mistakes happen, they own them, learn from them and work to make things right rather than blaming others. I mean, again, our sinful default is, “Man, it’s somebody else’s fault.” Here’s the truth. If you’re a leader, many times you’re going to have to own stuff that isn’t totally your fault. It might be those you’re leading, right? But the best leaders aren’t throwing other people under the bus. The best leaders are saying, “Man, I’m going to take that one and I’m going to have a conversation with that individual on the side, but I’m not going to publicly in any way shame them or make them look bad. I’ll take that myself.”

Dan Hurst:

Well, it comes back to body life, right?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

I mean, if a team is, I mean, the church is the body, right?

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Dan Hurst:

But a team is also a body. And when one member suffers, we all suffer, but when one makes a mistake, we have all collectively made a mistake. So, yeah, one member may be responsible, but we are all responsible to fix the issue.

Mark Hallock:

That’s exactly right.

Dan Hurst:

In my opinion-

Mark Hallock:

No, that’s good, man.

Dan Hurst:

… I have to assume if I am the team leader, I have to assume some responsibility for my team members’ mistakes, right?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. And again, I think another way of just saying this is just do what you say you’re going to do. But here’s what I would say. If you’re a leader, be ready to show a lot of grace.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. Oh, man.

Mark Hallock:

And I would say for me, and all you can do ultimately is control you. Be the kind of team player yourself that follows through, that follows through, even if no one else is on your team.

Mark Clifton:

Which means you can’t overpromise.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s true.

Mark Clifton:

You got to have some-

Mark Hallock:

Don’t overpromise, underdeliver.

Mark Clifton:

You got to have some discipline to not overpromise. And we overpromise because we want people to like us.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. Yep.

Mark Clifton:

Because we’re basically insecure. And so, we want everybody to like us. So we say yes to everything.

Mark Hallock:

Everything.

Mark Clifton:

And then we can’t fulfill it. And then we dig ourselves a really deep hole.

Mark Hallock:

Dude, that is so true. That’s so true.

Dan Hurst:

Painfully true.

Mark Hallock:

Okay. Number three. So, we’ve got number one, effective communicator. Number two, reliable and accountable. Number three, this is big. This is painful for a lot of people.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

Adaptable and flexible. Strong team players understand that plans and priorities will sometimes change. Instead of complaining or resisting, they adjust quickly, stay positive and focus on finding the best solution for the team. So, this means one of the things that comes to my mind is there are going to be times where I have ideas that I’m really pumped about, but the others aren’t real pumped about it. And Clifton, I would say you do this well though, man. You do this well because you’re an idea guy and you have so many good ideas, but I feel like you model humility in the way you hold stuff. Like you’ll be quick to say, “No, don’t worry guys, that’s not a great idea,” or whatever. And not take it personally, or at least you don’t act like you take it personally.

Mark Clifton:

Well, I do take it personally. I just don’t act like it.

Mark Hallock:

You just don’t act like it.

Mark Clifton:

No, that’s not true. I’ve learned to do that.

Mark Hallock:

You’ve had to though because as an idea guy, how many ideas have you had in your life that get shot down?

Mark Clifton:

A lot. I’ve learned to do that. I’ve learned to say, “Okay, I’m not married to this idea. We don’t have to do this.” So, I’ve learned to do that. But it was a process of learning and realizing that when they disagree with the idea, it doesn’t mean they’re disagreeing with me. It doesn’t mean they’re questioning my leadership. It means they probably know some things I don’t know. They see it in a way I don’t see it. But they’re still, and Matt’s in here and you’re in here and Dan’s in here. You know there will still be some things which I will not negotiate.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah, that’s true. And I think it’s appropriate.

Mark Clifton:

It probably isn’t because these aren’t theologically things. These are just preferences of my own style of music or way I want the stage set up. And sometimes I can be a little hardheaded about that kind of stuff and I don’t need to be. It’s not helpful.

Dan Hurst:

But don’t you have to bring in the matter of patience? Part of that is being patient enough to let it just simmer for a while.

Mark Hallock:

Well, that’s true.

Dan Hurst:

And let it cook. In other words, if you’ve got this idea and you know that it’s a great idea and something good to do, the rest of us may not have cooked enough to really understand it yet.

Mark Clifton:

Well, I’m in a position now, not as a pastor, but as a team leader of men who are really equal to me or beyond me in their ability, that they speak freely to me and say, “Clifton, don’t ask us for our opinion if you don’t want it.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Right.

Mark Clifton:

That has actually been said to me on many occasions and they mean it. These are guys that I have played golf with. These are guys I’ve gone to eat with. These are guys that we’ve had a good time and laughed until we cried.

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Mark Clifton:

So, I have this really sweet brotherhood relationship with these guys. So, when they say that to me, “Clifton, don’t ask us.” I’ll say, “Hey, I think we should have this musical group at our thing.” “No, I don’t think we should.” “Well, we’re going to anyway.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Yeah. What do you guys think?

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. What do you guys think?

Mark Hallock:

I don’t really care what we think. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

And you’ll tell me that. And that has helped me immensely. Whereas a pastor, I don’t think people feel free to say that to the pastor. And so no one corrects us.

Mark Hallock:

Good point.

Mark Clifton:

And that habit just gets worse and worse and worse. So, guys, just please don’t be that kind of leader on these. I’m talking about stuff that how you set up the stage, what we’re going to do on this event, how we’re going to set up for the banquet, don’t make those a hill to die on.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

You may have an idea, but if somebody has a different idea, just give into that.

Mark Hallock:

That’s a good point, bud. I mean, I think you need to ask yourself, we all do, how adaptable and flexible am I? Because you’re right, there are times where I’ll be around guys and I’m shocked by why do you care so much about that?

Mark Clifton:

Exactly.

Mark Hallock:

You don’t care a lot about that, but why in the world? What’s going on there? You know what I mean? And who knows? I mean, there’s different reasons, but I think as far as it depends on us to be the kind of team player that holds a lot of things loosely.

Mark Clifton:

There you go.

Mark Hallock:

I mean, there are hills to die on, but they’re very few.

Mark Clifton:

Very few.

Mark Hallock:

They’re very few.

Mark Clifton:

Very few. Most of them, it’s not going to matter tomorrow and not going to matter next year. Don’t burn your collateral on it.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Because who cares if you get your way and the whole team-

Mark Clifton:

Doesn’t like it.

Mark Hallock:

… doesn’t like it. That’s not a win.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

No, that’s happened to me on a-

Mark Hallock:

You know what I mean? And you can tell. And you’re like, “These guys are fired up about this. I got my way. I wish I wouldn’t have.”

Mark Clifton:

Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

Something that I’ve learned also that if within team members themselves, if there’s conflict about an idea or the way we should do something, I will go to the one who maybe said, “Okay, fine. We won’t do it.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

And talk that through with them to help and encourage them and even thank them for their flexibility. I mean, because you have to-

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

… teach flexibility.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, that’s right. Yeah.

Dan Hurst:

You have to teach that adaptability. And if they learn, I did it, I handled it the right way.

Mark Hallock:

Good point.

Dan Hurst:

It’s really important for them to discover that’s part of team building.

Mark Clifton:

And one of the ways you can really develop an environment where the team is able to push back on the leader and say, “No, man, you’re a little out of line here,” is as I said, you’ve built relational collateral by having some good times together.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

If the only time your team gets together at church is when you’re in a meeting to discuss something, you need to spend some time fishing with those guys, hunting with those guys, hanging out, having a relationship so that it becomes, again, sort of a brotherhood kind of thing. And you can take that feedback, that criticism and know that it’s not personal. They love me and I love them and this is going to help me.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

So, I think investing time in them socially and in ways of doing activities that are fun, man, that’s really important team building.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, building friendship.

Mark Clifton:

But no icebreakers.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

We don’t do icebreakers.

Mark Hallock:

I like those.

Mark Clifton:

That’s the one thing I will not tolerate on-

Mark Hallock:

You do not like icebreakers.

Mark Clifton:

You can do icebreakers after I retire, but we don’t do icebreakers. I draw the line. That’s a hill we’re dying on.

Mark Hallock:

You’re going to die on.

Mark Clifton:

I ain’t doing no icebreakers.

Mark Hallock:

Here’s number four. This goes along. It’s being supportive and encouraging. This is huge. This team member genuinely celebrates the success of others and looks for opportunities to help. They consistently and intentionally speak encouragement and hope to others on the team. So, in other words, man, if you’re jealous of all the team members on your team and somebody has a success and you don’t encourage, the moment you find yourself choosing not to encourage someone who should be encouraged, that’s a point of repentance.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, man.

Mark Hallock:

Something’s going on in your heart right there that says, “Why don’t I want to encourage them? What’s going on there?” Because what’s going on is somehow your feelings are hurt because either you want to be encouraged or you don’t want to… You know what I mean? You don’t want to see them get more honor or whatever. And you got to kill that stuff, man. You need the Holy Spirit to kill that stuff. Nobody wants to be on a team, I’ve been on teams. I’ve seen faces of guys and gals who I’m like, it was like pity parties all the time. You know what I mean? And I’ve been on teams with guys who are like, they’re the first ones to encourage you. “Dude, that’s awesome, man. God used you to do this.” They’re not even thinking about themselves. You know what I mean? Tim Keller wrote this book, The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness, and it’s really a book on humility.

And it’s so good because he’s like, “The point is, man, God wants to get you to the point where you’re not even thinking about you. You’re just thinking about him and others all the time.” And I’m telling you, man, that kind of leader, they are magnetic. You are drawn to them. People want to be around them and it shapes their team. So, again, being supportive and encouraging. And I would say this, if you’re like, “Man, I’ve never really been around that.” You can grow as an encourager. You can grow in this.

Dan Hurst:

And teach.

Mark Hallock:

In fact, the Lord wants you to.

Dan Hurst:

And by growing, you teach.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

Number five, last one, joyfully collaborative. Okay? He’s what I mean by joyfully collaborative. A collaborative person cares more about the success of the team. How many times have we said team? Than receiving personal recognition. It’s not about me, it’s about the team. They share ideas. They give credit freely to others, and they work to bring out the best in other team members. So, in other words, I want to help. One of the things we talk about at Calvary is this is one of our core values as a team, is helping others get wins. That’s how we say it. How are you helping others in this room get wins for their ministry? They’re quick to submit their ideas to the team, not taking it personally if the team decides to go in a different direction. We kind of talked about that, but being joyfully collaborative. Listen, if you can’t be joyfully collaborative, you probably shouldn’t be on the team. You know what I mean? It’s the whole point of the team. You know what I mean?

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

And it’s like, dude, being on a team should be a privilege. You’ve been invited to be part of something with a group of people for a common purpose. Dude, nobody’s entitled to be on a team. You know what I mean? You’ve been asked to be on team, and I know if I’m leading a team, I’ve got no problem asking somebody to leave a team.

Mark Clifton:

I always try to be cautious about using the personal pronoun in relationship to the team. I’ve said it a few times in this podcast already. I think I’ve said my team. It’s really our team.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, it’s our team.

Mark Clifton:

It’s our church staff. It’s our volunteers. It’s our church budget. It’s not my budget. It’s not my thing. It’s not my staff. So glad for my staff to be here as a pastor. I know what you mean. That may even be a term of endearment. My children, they’re somebody I care and love. My spouse, obviously, my staff. Well, no, it’s really not. It’s our staff.

Mark Hallock:

It’s our staff.

Mark Clifton:

It belongs to the church, belongs to Christ. And this is our team, even the North American Mission Board, the Revitalization [inaudible 00:21:45] Team. I try to say when I be conscious of it, I’m so glad to be part of our team and our team does this rather than my team. It’s not my team.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right. No, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

And I think the way you say it is even helpful. So, try to, as a pastor, as a leader, stay away from the personal pronoun in dealing with teamship, things like that.

Mark Hallock:

Yep. Yep.

Dan Hurst:

All right. That wraps it up. It’s almost like-

Mark Clifton:

But this is my podcast.

Dan Hurst:

It is your podcast. And by the way, we are part of your team. So, to close, we want you to stand on the ottoman and we’re going to stand behind you and catch you.

Mark Clifton:

Oh, yeah, I bet you will.

Dan Hurst:

If you fall backward.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah, I’m sure.

Dan Hurst:

Because we’re a team.

Mark Clifton:

I fell for that twice. I’m not going to do it three times.

Dan Hurst:

Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this podcast helpful, don’t forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. To learn more about becoming a Replant pastor or to explore Revitalization resources for your church, subscribe to our monthly newsletter at churchreplanters.com.