7 Ways to Help Your People Navigate Youth Sports on Sunday

Dan Hurst:

Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.

Hey, I’ve got something I got to bring up to you guys. I’ll bet most guys that listen to this podcast have encountered this to some degree or another. This is Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton sitting there to my left. And on my right, I just sort of feel so-

Mark Clifton:

It’s like James and John.

Dan Hurst:

On my left and on my right. And on my right is Mark Hallock. And before me is Matt MacNaughton.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

I’m Dan Hurst. Okay, so here’s my question guys. I have a guy who’s one of the leaders in my church and he’s a deacon. He’s got teenage kids. And he told me a little over a month ago, he said, “Preacher, I just want to let you know I’m going to be gone for three months because my kids are on a traveling sports team.” And he said, “We’re gone every weekend, almost every weekend out of town. So I just wanted to let you know.” He says, “I’m not quitting. I’m not gone. I’m unavailable.” And he says, “And I’ll be honest with you,” he said, “I struggle with it because I know that I have a priority and I need to be in church. I need my kids to be in church, but what do I do?” And he said, “I try to justify it by saying, well, I’ll just live out my faith there at the ballpark and maybe have some Bible studies and that sort of thing.” And really when you think about it, all those things, they’re noble, but they fall short.

So you have this, you wrote this little blog about seven ways to help your people navigate youth sports on Sunday.

Mark Clifton:

We talk a lot on this podcast about what used to be. I said in a few podcasts ago, my whole spiritual gift and reason for living now is to tell you how things used to be.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. And they were different.

Mark Clifton:

And they were different. And certainly years ago, you had no youth sports on Sunday.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Zero. In fact, when I grew up, we had no youth sports on Wednesday, Mark.

Mark Hallock:

That’s wild.

Mark Clifton:

Wednesday night was a church night.

Mark Hallock:

It was church night.

Mark Clifton:

It just was.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. It was almost like a blue law of sports.

Mark Clifton:

Almost like a blue law sports. Sundays and Wednesdays, especially Sundays. You wouldn’t have many sports on Sundays. And so it just wasn’t an issue. But it is a huge, huge issue right now. One of the worst that we have.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah. It’s huge. It’s huge. And I think there’s a lot of our people in our churches, and we know this, that are struggling with it. I mean, some parents don’t care. And you know what? Their kids kind of reign and rule and youth sports have taken over and this is how it is.

Mark Clifton:

Let’s be frank. For a lot of people, church has become optional.

Mark Hallock:

It’s optional. You’re right, man.

Mark Clifton:

Church worship, worship attendance has become optional.

Mark Hallock:

Sunday mornings. Yep.

Mark Clifton:

They feel like we can catch it online later or it’ll be there when we get back. And the fact that I don’t go every week doesn’t mean I’m not involved in my church.

Mark Hallock:

Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

Doesn’t mean I’m not engaged. Now that changed too, obviously. So yeah, the church is more optional than it used to be for sure. Rainer says now I think it’s 1.3 times a month that people attend worship, they call themselves regular.

Mark Hallock:

Regular attenders.

Mark Clifton:

In attendance.

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Mark Clifton:

So we live in a world now where we have conflicts with youth sports we simply didn’t have a decade or two ago. And it’s just going to get worse.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. It’s not going to change.

Mark Clifton:

I don’t care how big your town is, all across these communities, you see these massive sports complexes, with softball. Jill and I were driving home the other day and I said, “Look, they’re playing croquet.” She said, “This is not croquet.” She said, “That’s…” What do you call it where you?

Mark Hallock:

Field hockey?

Mark Clifton:

Field hockey. They’re playing field hockey.

Mark Hallock:

Croquet.

Mark Clifton:

Croquet. I don’t know. Same thing, I don’t know. I’m an old man.

Mark Hallock:

They got wooden sticks or hitting something, hitting the ball.

Mark Clifton:

They’re playing field hockey. So kids need another sport to learn.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, I know. I know.

Mark Clifton:

There’s not enough out there. So here’s a whole bunch of leagues now. And then some of you may like field hockey, that’s fine. I’ve got some friends whose kids play ice hockey. And these are people who live in a desert state. I mean, literally it’s a United States state that’s a desert state. 20 years ago there weren’t any kids playing ice hockey. So now it’s ice hockey, it’s croquet or what is that?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

Field hockey.

Mark Hallock:

Field hockey. Croquet may make a comeback. We’ll see.

Mark Clifton:

Okay. A few weeks ago-

Mark Hallock:

Sport of the future.

Mark Clifton:

… my daughter found this guy who has a croquet field. It’s official. It’s level. It’s the right size. He’s part of the U.S. croquet national team.

Mark Hallock:

I can’t believe that’s a thing.

Mark Clifton:

It’s a thing. And sure enough, it’s a level field. It’s beautiful. And so we get there and I was just going to play croquet and he gave me all the rules, man. And we weren’t playing it right. It was serious, dude.

Mark Hallock:

He wasn’t playing around.

Mark Clifton:

He was croquet. Anyway, I put it on my Facebook. I got pictures of him playing it. This guy was taking his croquet really seriously.

Mark Hallock:

I’m sure he was.

Mark Clifton:

He was taking his croquet really seriously. Real seriously. My wife and I, the grandkids, he goes, no, no, you got to go this way, then you go that way. Anyway, whatever.

Mark Hallock:

Well, you got all these sports.

Mark Clifton:

But it’s all sports.

Mark Hallock:

It’s just sports, sports, sports.

Mark Clifton:

It’s sports, sports. And so our kids are immersed in it. I think certainly 24 hour television, sports networks, 24 hours on streaming networks, everything’s about sports these days. And parents feel like if I’m not putting my kids in sports, I’m not being the kind of parent they need to be.

Mark Hallock:

See, that’s I think the heart of it in a lot of ways is right there.

Mark Clifton:

And there’s a limited amount of time in a kid’s life.

Mark Hallock:

I know.

Mark Clifton:

And if you got school and church and sports, where do you prioritize that?

Mark Hallock:

Exactly. Yep.

Mark Clifton:

And frankly, if they’re going to be on a certain level of sports, they’re going to have to play on Sundays or they can’t be in that sport.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. They won’t get on the team. They won’t make the next level, whatever it is.

Mark Clifton:

They will not be on the next level. Now we haven’t even gotten to the place where we’re trying to talk about whether parents think they can get their kids some sort of scholarship for sports.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah.

Mark Clifton:

That’s a whole nother topic.

Mark Hallock:

It’s a whole nother deal.

Mark Clifton:

We’re just talking about sort of recreational activities.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right. And so what we want to do is, in light of all of that, we want to talk about how do we as pastors and leaders help our people, parents specifically, also grandparents-

Mark Clifton:

Absolutely.

Mark Hallock:

Navigate youth sports on Sunday.

Mark Clifton:

Talk about how when you drive to church, what you see in Denver.

Mark Hallock:

Well, I pass on my way on Sunday mornings, now what you got to realize is I come out of my house on Sunday morning and across the street from my house are hundreds and hundreds of children and families playing soccer.

Mark Clifton:

And what time is that?

Mark Hallock:

It’s by 7:38 in the morning.

Mark Clifton:

In the morning on Sunday morning.

Mark Hallock:

And it just goes all day. And it’s just loaded. And that’s just right across the street from my house. If I were to count, I mean literally, this is no exaggeration, we’re talking thousands and thousands of people between my house and our church on Sunday mornings playing soccer. Soccer is just huge in the part of Denver where I live. And I just go, “Man, Lord, these people need Jesus. These kids need Jesus. Their parents need Jesus. What do we do about that?” And again, a lot of parents, Christian parents are wrestling with what to do. And so what we want to do is just offer seven ways to help your people navigate youth sports on Sunday, because I think there are wrong ways and there are some right ways to approach this.

And so number one is this. The first is you need to lead with grace and not guilt. I mean, listen, parents already feel the tension. They do. Christian parents feel the tension. And so we need to help them see that the goal here, we’re not trying to shame, we’re trying to help them gain wisdom for how to parent their kids in this season of life. And so we want to shepherd families toward Jesus. Hear this, we want to shepherd them toward Jesus, not simply scold them about their schedules, because a lot of them already feel guilty.

Dan Hurst:

So how does it look to lead by grace?

Mark Hallock:

Does that make sense? To lead with grace, not guilt. I think one is to start with a place of this is a difficult issue. I think-

Mark Clifton:

Just say, I understand.

Mark Hallock:

I understand. This hard.

Mark Clifton:

This is hard. It’s hard being a parent. If these kids want to do this, I understand this is… And to even say, which I can say, and you could too, Hurst, and maybe you could even say when I was a kid, they can say, look, I didn’t have to make this choice when my kids were little.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

I was fortunate enough that we weren’t playing on Sundays. So I realize this is a struggle for you and I just want you to know I understand this is a tough decision and there’s a lot of ramifications for this.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. It’s not as black and white as some people want to make it sound. And part of this is I speak from my own experience. I was an athlete all through into college. Sports, man, the Lord used sports in massive ways in my life. That’s just the truth.

Mark Clifton:

Let’s be honest, you played basketball in college.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Well, there were some Sundays when you were in college, you were traveling, you couldn’t go to church.

Mark Hallock:

No, that’s true. Yeah, that’s very true.

Mark Clifton:

Right?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

And you were a believer.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

But you couldn’t go to church because you were on a college basketball team.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s just how it was.

Mark Clifton:

Now that’s different than a nine-year-old.

Mark Hallock:

That was different. Exactly. When I was a kid, it wasn’t that way, but as I got into college, it was. But I guess here’s my point is I think we need to approach it personally, not just like either… It’s not just totally black and white. And that’s what makes this difficult, I guess.

Mark Clifton:

Well, some people listening right now would say it is black and white.

Mark Hallock:

Oh yeah, yeah. They’d say it’s black and white no matter what.

Mark Clifton:

Well, in one sense it is.

Mark Hallock:

Right. Of course.

Mark Clifton:

Okay, I want to make sure we don’t get a lot of hate mail. In one sense, we believe the kids need to be in church on Sunday morning.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s for sure.

Mark Clifton:

Rather than playing ball.

Mark Hallock:

Jesus is king, man.

Mark Clifton:

Exactly.

Mark Hallock:

The church is number one priority.

Mark Clifton:

But how you approach this-

Mark Hallock:

That’s what we’re trying to say.

Mark Clifton:

… you’ve got to find some way of grace and understanding and realize the difficulty the parents are in this.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. It’s just not going to be helpful to just be harsh is my point.

Mark Clifton:

There you go.

Mark Hallock:

It’s just not going to be helpful. They’re just not going to want to not talk to you or else they’re going to live this double life and you’re not helping to disciple them.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, they’re not asking for you to forgive them. They’re asking for you to help them navigate the guilt.

Mark Hallock:

Deal with this. Here’s number two. Number two is you do, this is really important, you need to intentionally teach a biblical theology of priorities. So in other words, sports are a good gift from the Lord, right? But like everything else that is created, they make a terrible God. So we need to help our parents and our students and our kids think honestly about what’s shaping their hearts and their identity and their worship. And so a theology of priorities, this is where like offer a class, maybe even preach us a couple of sermons. But get your people thinking about priorities, time, stewardship of time. Don’t just say… You need to help them wrestle with the Holy Spirit. That’s what I believe.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. I think that’s where we need to go is help them come to the place where they see this is their responsibility as gospel parents leading their kids in this way and help them grow in that. And we want to get them to that place.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, exactly.

Mark Clifton:

Sometimes you just come to them and say either or, they’ll go or, probably. Or they’ll live a double life, they won’t tell you. But we got to own some of this. We being those of us who are… Our culture is absolutely bonkers about sports.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. We’re obsessed.

Mark Clifton:

We’re obsessed. It is our religion. And I’m talking about Christians. Look, I get together with pastors all the time and all they… I mean, man, Southeast Conference.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, I know.

Mark Clifton:

Alabama, LSU.

Mark Hallock:

College football.

Mark Clifton:

Okay. Well, kids grow up in that environment where sports is really important. And even you may be in a pastor’s home-

Mark Hallock:

I know.

Mark Clifton:

… your dad may be a preacher. You come home and all he does on Sunday is just watch NFL.

Mark Hallock:

I know, man.

Mark Clifton:

Because he’s all into it. There’s a mixed message there.

Mark Hallock:

Well, dude, let’s just name it. And I say this, we can all be guilty, but there’s a lot of kids when they think of their dad, they think my dad’s way more passionate about his college football team than he is Jesus. I don’t hear my dad talking about Jesus and the Bible that way. What do you think your kids… It’s more caught than taught man.

Mark Clifton:

Or being proud of Jesus the way he’s proud of his college, or proud of his basketball.

Mark Hallock:

And pastors can be just as guilty. That’s the thing.

Mark Clifton:

We totally can. Sometimes I hear the way pastors talk about sports and I realize we talk about you need to have a hobby and it’s good to have a hobby and all that kind of thing. But there’s no doubt that the adversary uses sports as a total distraction, especially since so much of it takes place on Sunday. And hey, I’m Kansas City. On the Sundays, the Chiefs have a noon kickoff. Good luck. I mean, attendance is going to be down. And people don’t feel bad about that at all because I’m going to watch the Chiefs.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. That’s just how it is.

Mark Clifton:

Or I’m going to go to the Chiefs game. Forget talking about kids playing ball. How many of your church members have tickets to Sunday football games?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s true.

Mark Clifton:

And don’t mind missing that Sunday because I got tickets to the game. I’m not trying to be legalistic here. I mean, we’re not talking legalism, but we are talking priorities.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

I’m a huge K-State fan. I’m a huge Bruins fan, and I get that. And when my grandsons were born, I got them little K-State, little things you put on a newborn head. I’m a future K-Stater, while they’re in the hospital still. You buy little K-State jerseys and all that. And you grow up in the, well, this is a K-State house, man. We’re all purple and all that. Do we do that kind of emphasis that this is a Jesus house? We proudly wear the mark of Christ here and we’re not ashamed of it or? I don’t know.

Mark Hallock:

No, it’s true, man. Here’s number three. This is really good. Encourage families to decide before the season begins. So in other words, this is very practical, but we need to encourage parents to prayerfully decide ahead of time what they will and will not miss on Sundays. I mean, you’ve got to make decisions, and there’s no way around this issue. You’re going to have to sacrifice. There’s going to have to be a. I mean, you’re going to sacrifice something.

Mark Clifton:

You can’t do both.

Mark Hallock:

You can’t. So you’ve got to make some hard decisions. And I’m just telling you, the reason why I put it this way is it’s much more difficult to make these hard decisions in the moment, in the middle of a season, than before the season begins.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. Dad, we got these Sunday tournaments, so we got to get to go. Whereas you need to have set the rules.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

You can play, but if there’s a Sunday thing, we’re not going. Let that attend time-

Mark Hallock:

Because the moment to a kid, are you kidding me? It’s like, dad, we got to. And so again, I just think encourage families.

Here’s number four, help parents see what Sunday gathering forms in their kids. This is huge. Church attendance is not just about being present. It teaches children that worship matters. The body of Christ matters. God’s word matters. And Jesus is worthy of our first allegiance. So every time you as a family… And again, I always say this to parents, don’t tell your kids we have to go to church. You tell your kids we get to go to church.

Mark Clifton:

We have to go to church.

Mark Hallock:

We get to go worship Jesus and we’re going to do this. He’s worthy of our praise. And in saying that, they may not like it in the moment because their buddies are all playing ball somewhere, but you wait till they get a little older and they say, “Man, I’m so thankful that my parents instilled within me the importance of worship on Sunday mornings.” Because here’s the thing, Sunday morning, God uses Sunday morning to transform us, to form us. And our kids are transformed through that weekly worship. They just are. And they will be transformed by not being in that weekly worship.

Dan Hurst:

Well, and this speaks to, and this comes up all the time, we’ll just watch the service online.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s a whole new thing.

Dan Hurst:

It is a whole new thing, but what it does is you can watch it online, but you just miss the exact thing that we’re talking about.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

The presence of fellowship.

Mark Hallock:

Of other people, being in community, all that.

Mark Clifton:

We need to communicate to our kids and our spouses, and I was not good at this at all, not in the least. I wish a hundred times I could live it all over. I really do. Because I did a lot of the, we need to go to church. You guys got to be there. I did a lot of that. But what we need to communicate is that corporate worship is the moment that that particular group of people is in that particular place worshiping God at that particular moment, and it’ll never happen again just like that.

Mark Hallock:

Amen. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

This is a very important moment. This is major. This is eternal.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

Okay. This group in this moment, hearing this text, singing these songs and the presence of the resurrected Lord will never happen again.

Mark Hallock:

Again.

Mark Clifton:

Doesn’t happen in our house when we watch it on the screen.

Mark Hallock:

Nope.

Mark Clifton:

It’s only when we’re gathered. And the scripture is full of indications that God does something when his people gather among his people.

Mark Hallock:

Amen. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

That’s not being done elsewhere. I wish I had communicated that better to my kids. This is why we go to church. It’s not because we have to or we should, or it’s a habit we need to make or we want to commit to Christ. It’s something that’s happening there and we’ve got to be a part of it.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. We get to be a part of it.

Mark Clifton:

When I say we got to, it’s like-

Mark Hallock:

No, I know what you’re saying. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

We can’t miss this.

Mark Hallock:

We can’t miss this thing.

Mark Clifton:

Right. This only happens when people are gathered there.

Mark Hallock:

That’s good.

Mark Clifton:

And I think to indicate to your kids that as important as traveling baseball might be, as important as Sunday sports might be, it’s not like this.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

It’s not this important.

Mark Hallock:

No, no. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Then it’s incumbent on you pastor and song leader to make sure what happens on Sunday morning really is worship.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

And you’re not just mailing it in week to week.

Mark Hallock:

Amen.

Mark Clifton:

And you got a bunch of stuff up there on the stage that’s just a bunch of lighthearted chit-chat and talk and announcements and funny stories and sing some song. No, that you bring some gravitas to this.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. Give them God, man.

Mark Clifton:

God is here. Exactly.

Mark Hallock:

Number five, we got to keep rolling.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, because I mean number five speaks to exactly what Clifton is talking about. We’ve got to call our parents to courageous leadership.

Mark Hallock:

It is. It’s courageous leadership. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

We got to support them in that.

Mark Hallock:

Because think about it. Parents feel pressures. I know I did as a parent when my kids were playing sports from coaches, from teams, other families. And so we’ve got to encourage our folks to lovingly lead their children instead of letting the sports calendar kind of have the final say on everything. And that takes courage. It takes conviction, first of all. You have to have conviction yourself that this matters, and then it takes courage to lead with that conviction.

Dan Hurst:

Well, and the key word there is leadership. I mean, leaders teach leaders. And if you don’t have the courage to be a leader at this point, you’re teaching your son or your daughter to not be leaders.

Mark Clifton:

And you better be ready to make some commitments on your own. You might want to go fishing some weekend.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

You might want to go camping with your buddies or you might want to take the family cap and some sun. You better be ready to live up to what you’re asking these kids to do and say, “I’m coming back Saturday night because I need to be in church on Sunday. I really want to be there. I don’t want to miss it.” I think you’re going to send mixed messages if you do that.

Mark Hallock:

It’s a good word, man. Okay. Number six, we’ve got two more, number six is celebrate sports as a mission field. And I think this really is important. Don’t just tell families what to avoid, but help them see practices and games and coaches and teammates and tournaments as opportunities to build relationships with lost people, right? I mean, this is a mission field. We’re called to be everyday missionaries. It’s one of the phrases we have at our church, everyday missionary, man. That’s what we’re all called to be. And so this is the plus side of, it’s not just about your kids playing a sport. It’s about a mission field that God has given you in his sovereignty to be able to reach people with the gospel that you wouldn’t reach in other ways.

Dan Hurst:

But is that a compromise?

Mark Hallock:

How is it a compromise?

Dan Hurst:

Okay, we won’t be here on Sunday. We’ll be playing sports, but we realize that’s our mission field.

Mark Hallock:

Well, okay. Yeah, I guess I see this more as a little different category. Your kids are playing sports. If your kids play sports, you need to see that as a ministry opportunity.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. Don’t silo it.

Mark Hallock:

Don’t silo it.

Mark Clifton:

This is church, this is sports. I still think we lead them away from playing sports on Sunday. I think as a shepherd, a pastor who shepherds well, you can’t shepherd well if you don’t help your parents lead them away from making sports something on Sunday rather than worship. I just think we have to do that. And they do. We lead with grace, we lead with understanding, we lead with patience, realizing not everybody’s going to get to that decision at the same moment. For some, it’s going to be a longer process. That’s pastoral. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not going to still be engaged in sports.

Mark Hallock:

Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

All my grandkids play sports, but in the ones they’re playing in, none of them play on Sunday. So help them understand that sports is a chance to interact with other kids, to be a Christian witness to those kids, for parents to stand there and talk to other parents. You got a lot of time to talk to other parents, make some good relationships, talk about church and Christ and what you do so you’re not siloing it so there aren’t separate words.

Mark Hallock:

Right. Yeah. That’s kind of, I think, the heart behind it. And then the last one guys, then we need to wrap this up, is do offer practical alternatives and support. And this is on us. We need to help families think through options, right? Choosing teams, for instance, that have fewer Sunday conflicts, if that’s possible. Missing occasional games, attending a different service if you’ve got a couple of services. You may only have one service. But the point is this, you need to shepherd your people through this. It’s not easy. You need to lead with grace. You need to lead with truth at the same time. You need to have courage as a pastor. I mean, here’s the reality, man. We talk about parents being courageous. It takes courage. You’re stepping on sacred cows left and right in our culture. And so it takes courage to do that wisely with love, with patience, but to do that and to help your parents kind of wrestle through this.

They’ve only got a few years. I mean, here’s what we know. The three of us, all of our kids are older, out of the house now. My son was a gifted athlete. I mean, he was a gifted athlete, and we had to make some hard decisions about him not playing on certain teams that would have cost way more money than we could afford.

Mark Clifton:

There you go.

Mark Hallock:

And also would have, quite frankly, hijacked our weekends for years. And here’s what I’ll tell you. As painful as that was in the moment, I’m so glad we did that. And my son would tell you now he’s so glad we did that too. You know what I mean?

Listen, parents, you parent your kids, your kids don’t parent you. And that’s important to remember. Have courage, trust the Lord, and as pastors, lead with grace and truth in this.

Dan Hurst:

It’s a difficult, difficult maze to maneuver, isn’t it? Because every church deals with this, every community deals with this, and your people are dealing with, they’re struggling with it. One of the interesting things that you said here, Hallock, was that as one of the alternatives and the support that we should offer is that we need to help them connect with small groups and student ministry groups during the week. And the thing that I found with a lot of these families say, “Oh, we’d hate to miss. We don’t want to be. But we got to, what are we going to do?” Well, I don’t see them most of the time making any effort to make up for that during the week, events that are going on during the week. Their kids could be there for a youth group on Wednesday nights, but they’re too tired. Then they had school.

Mark Hallock:

No, that’s true.

Dan Hurst:

And so that tells me that you’re not really serious about this. You’re playing a game here. And that comes back to what we talked about earlier about the courageous leadership. How honest are you being with this?

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. It does.

Dan Hurst:

Tough subject, and I’m glad we approached it, and I’m glad everybody’s going to pick on you guys and not me.

Mark Clifton:

Well, it’s an easy answer. We want them on church on Sunday morning.

Dan Hurst:

There you go.

Mark Clifton:

The difficult answer, difficult situation as a pastor is, how do you navigate that and get them there? I realize we’ve gone over time here, but I don’t care. It’s kind of like anybody in your congregation, you want to get them closer to Christ. And it’s kind of like some people are born on the 50 yard line. I mean, they’re in a Christian home. Mom and dad always say the right things, do the right. And getting them across the… But for some people, man, they’re born in the parking lot. You got to get them even in the stadium. And so you got to look at your congregation and say, not all these people are at the same place spiritually. And so we got to be patient with them and we want to see growth in them constantly. But for some people, the growth is going to be slower and they’re going to be started from a much further place back than others who maybe start much closer to the goal line.

Does that make sense?

Mark Hallock:

Dude, it totally does. I mean, if you’re reaching lost people at all-

Mark Clifton:

They’re going to be in all kinds of places.

Mark Hallock:

… they are not… this is all foreign to them.

Mark Clifton:

It is. Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

And if you’re not patient and have… If you treat everybody, they won’t stick to your church. I mean, they just won’t. And I don’t want that to be an obstacle to the gospel at the same time. So it takes a lot of wisdom and discernment.

Mark Clifton:

A lot of patience.

Mark Hallock:

A lot of patience.

Mark Clifton:

But the goal is to get them to Christ as primary in their life.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

Worship is more important than any other activities.

Mark Hallock:

Than anything else. Yep.

Mark Clifton:

But how do you get them there? All right.

Dan Hurst:

All right. With that in mind, we wrap it up, and thank you for spending time with us. I know this has created a lot of questions and ifs, ands, or buts in all of us that deal with that, this kind of subject.

Mark Clifton:

If you need information on how to play croquet, I got that covered.

Dan Hurst:

Not on Sunday morning though. Not on Sunday morning. I know, it’s a ministry for you, but not on Sunday morning.

Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this podcast helpful, don’t forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. To learn more about becoming a Replant pastor or to explore revitalization resources for your church, subscribe to our monthly newsletter at churchreplanters.com.

Speaker 4:

Hey, man.