Correctable Preaching Mistakes: Part 1

Dan Hurst:

Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving. By pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. I’m Dan Hurst. We have the very young, talented, and handsome producer. Oh no, that’s Matt MacNaughton over there.

Mark Clifton:

Sorry. That’s Matt, sorry.

Dan Hurst:

Who is helping us with producing.

Mark Hallock:

Matt’s doing great.

Mark Clifton:

He’s doing great.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, he’s doing good.

Mark Clifton:

We just got back from lunch.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, we did go to lunch.

Mark Clifton:

We had barbecue and then we listened to Bluegrass all the way back.

Dan Hurst:

We did.

Mark Clifton:

We did.

Dan Hurst:

We did. And it was, “Oh, tell Alexa to play so-and-so.”

Mark Clifton:

I did. I kept saying, “Tell Alexa to play this.”

Dan Hurst:

He was the DJ.

Mark Clifton:

I was the DJ. So we listened to the White House Blues.

Mark Hallock:

It’s quite a song.

Mark Clifton:

It’s a song about the assassination of President McKinley.

Mark Hallock:

I like the version we listened to.

Mark Clifton:

That was the Earls of Lester.

Mark Hallock:

The Earls of Lester.

Mark Clifton:

The Earls of Leicester. It’s called the White House Blues.

Mark Hallock:

There you go.

Mark Clifton:

McKinley hollered, McKinley squall. Doc said, McKinley, I can’t find that ball. You’re going to die. You’re going to die.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, man.

Mark Clifton:

Except in Bluegrass, it’s real upbeat and happy.

Mark Hallock:

It’s like upbeat and happy.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. It’s happy song about an assassination.

Mark Clifton:

About assassination. Yeah. Doctor took off his specs, said, McKinley, you better cash in your checks. You’re going to die. You’re going to die.

So now that nobody’s listening to this, check it out.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, check it out.

Dan Hurst:

This fits right into what we’re talking about today. Correctable mistakes we make when preaching and teaching.

Mark Clifton:

That’s White House Blues by the Earls of Leicester.

Dan Hurst:

Okay.

Mark Clifton:

Thank you.

Dan Hurst:

So what we’re going to do, we’re going to split this … It’s going to take us two sessions to do these correctable mistakes we make when preaching and teaching. Where did this come from? Where was this?

Mark Clifton:

This is Jim Ellis’s organization, Christian Communicators Worldwide.

Dan Hurst:

Okay. So we’ve got 10 correctable mistakes.

Mark Hallock:

And they’re correctable.

Dan Hurst:

They are correctable.

Mark Hallock:

That’s important.

Mark Clifton:

And we put these in the show notes. We’ll link to it.

Dan Hurst:

So we’re going to do five this session and then five in the next session.

Mark Clifton:

And then we got five that are not correctable.

Mark Hallock:

Those might be a bonus.

Dan Hurst:

Actually, we each have five that are not correctable-

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Dan Hurst:

… that we’ll talk about. So let’s talk about this because I mean, we’ve got a few preachers listening to us and you’re always trying to improve. And we do things sometimes without even knowing that we’re doing them. Sometimes those mistakes are just, we don’t even know what’s happening.

Mark Hallock:

That’s true.

Dan Hurst:

Some of them we do because we listen. I think pretty much all of us, at least I hope, listen to ourselves or watch ourselves after we’ve preached just to figure out what we’re doing, what we’re doing wrong and what we’re doing right.

Mark Clifton:

If you don’t, you should.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, you should. It’s not an ego thing.

Mark Clifton:

You really should. I mean, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, you couldn’t. A few people recorded sermons 40 or 50 years ago, but not many. But my dad and your dad, they really didn’t have the ability to learn from listening to themselves.

Dan Hurst:

Right.

Mark Clifton:

But now that we do, you need to listen to yourself and you need to watch yourself if it’s on … Now most of it’s on live stream or video. We’ll talk about why that’s important in a moment.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. Okay. So let’s jump on these. Hallock, what do you think?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. So the first one is apologizing for lack of preparation. Okay, so here’s an example of this. Don’t be the guy who’s up in the pulpit, you’ve had a long week and we all have long weeks. Or let’s say you didn’t have a long week, but either way, you’re standing in front of the people, “Hey, I just want you all to know before we get started, I really didn’t have a lot of time to prepare this.” And so I’m just warning you ahead of time.

Mark Clifton:

And it could even be something like, “We’ve had a busy week here at Vacation Bible school. I’ve been doing something every week and just haven’t had the time to normally prepare.” Something like that. Or you could say, “You guys know I’ve been sick with a terrible flu and cold and haven’t had time.” But here’s what I would say, not only do you please hear me say this, and I’ve done it and I’ll probably do it again before the Lord takes me home. Don’t apologize for anything.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

First of all, don’t apologize for your lack of preparation. Don’t apologize if you’ve got a bad voice, if you’ve got a cold.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Don’t say, “Boy, be with me today. I’ve got this cold.” Don’t bring attention to it.

Mark Hallock:

Don’t bring attention to it.

Mark Clifton:

Don’t apologize for it.

As we’re doing this podcast, it’s the Sunday … Last Sunday was the first Sunday that Mark Dever was back in the pulpit.

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Mark Clifton:

And Mark had a major health issue. The church kept it very private, but it was life-threatening, no doubt about it. And there was a time-

Mark Hallock:

A couple months ago.

Mark Clifton:

Couple months ago, very life-threatening. So his first Sunday back in the pulpit, what’s he do? Do you know what he does? Did you read this?

Mark Hallock:

No.

Mark Clifton:

Oh, really?

Dan Hurst:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

His first Sunday back in the pulpit, he gets up and they read the scripture and he preaches. He doesn’t talk about himself, he doesn’t talk-

Mark Hallock:

I believe that. I believe that.

Mark Clifton:

Because he didn’t want it to be about himself.

Mark Hallock:

It’s not about himself. It’s not about him.

Mark Clifton:

And he said it wasn’t until the last three minutes when he gave a heartfelt plea for the gospel that he indicated a little bit what he had been through. But he tied it to the fact that life is short and heartfelt call for the gospel.

Mark Hallock:

Wow.

Mark Clifton:

But he didn’t make it about himself. I’m thinking, here’s a guy, world-famous, who by all stretch was in a life-threatening issue. He didn’t get up and spend the first few minutes talking about that. He preached. I think if you’ve got a cold, if you’ve had the flu, I just think don’t make it about yourself and don’t apologize.

Mark Hallock:

Totally.

Mark Clifton:

Man, I got a bad cold today or my voice is a little bad or I didn’t have time to prepare. Just don’t apologize.

Mark Hallock:

It comes from a place of insecurity. And here’s the deal, people don’t care. I don’t care … Like you’re coming to preach, man.

Mark Clifton:

Right.

Mark Hallock:

It’s kind of like an athlete. I don’t want to hear, “Well, I was off because my ankle was hurting.” It’s like, dude, man up. You know what I mean?

Dan Hurst:

Or even worse, if they make the apology before they run.

Mark Clifton:

Well, exactly-

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, don’t apologize. I agree with Clifton.

Mark Clifton:

And part of it too, if you apologize and say, “I haven’t had time to prepare,” you’re basically saying you aren’t important enough for me.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, what does that say?

Mark Clifton:

We make time for what we need to make time for.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Mark Clifton:

So you’re basically saying, “You weren’t a priority this week.”

Mark Hallock:

Yep. That’s exactly right. That’s what he communicates.

Mark Clifton:

And then if you’re saying I’ve got a cold or my voice is a little weak, we’ll figure that out.

Mark Hallock:

People know. Yeah, exactly.

Mark Clifton:

You don’t need to point it out. Now you’re asking people to think about you and care about you. And now every time your voice cracks, they’re going to, oh yeah, he’s got a cold. You’ve just drawn attention to it for no-

Mark Hallock:

It’s like you’re trying to preempt any criticism or something.

Dan Hurst:

Now you … If it’s real-

Mark Clifton:

Now I have apologized for my appearance.

Dan Hurst:

So have other people.

Mark Clifton:

I do that a lot. Sorry that I look so raggedy today, but my clothes don’t fit.

Dan Hurst:

I did one time. I had been dealing with laryngitis and I had been sick for a while and my voice cracked real bad. I mean, one of those, your voice is changing cracks. And I just laughed and I just said-

Mark Clifton:

Sure.

Dan Hurst:

And I laughed and I said, “Next I’ll get zits.” And then I just went on with it. Sometimes you just have … It’s leaning into it.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

And it’s interesting mentioning it briefly and making a deal out of it.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah, there’s a difference.

Mark Hallock:

Don’t make a big deal out of it.

Mark Clifton:

Let’s just say one correctable mistake is don’t apologize before you start to preach. Also, don’t apologize for how many people aren’t there today.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, man.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, man.

Mark Clifton:

Don’t apologize for the lack of the crowd.

Mark Hallock:

That’s painful.

Mark Clifton:

Maybe don’t apologize if there’s something else going wrong technically. Just preach and just do it.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. I mean, listen, I can remember early on, I was so convicted in a good way by this. But I remember when we were … We were 30, 40 people. And I remember a Sunday we had a young family come and I remember, golly, it’s painful to think about, but I apologize. I was like, “We got some families out today.”

Mark Clifton:

We’re normally not this small.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m like, “Dude, we are this small. This is who we are.” You know what I mean? And it was just convicting. It’s like, “Man, don’t be ashamed. This is who we are. Lean into it.”

Mark Clifton:

Don’t apologize. All right. Number two, overusing illustrations to the point of obscuring or leaving behind the biblical text.

Mark Hallock:

That’s huge.

Mark Clifton:

Sometimes we’ll overuse illustrations because stories engage people. And you feel comfortable telling a story that’s engaging. Maybe you found a good illustration and it’s got a great hook. I do remember one time when we were in Canada in Montreal and we had a Sunday night church for college students just near the campus of McGill. We had a whole bunch of college students that would come, a hundred or more. It was a pretty neat event. It was called Impact Church. And had one of our leaders and he was talking about sexual purity.

And so he used some lengthy story about a little monkey named … I forgot the name of the monkey. I wish I could think of it. But he had a name, little monkey had a name, I don’t know, Chimpy or something like that. Chippy, Little Monkey Chippy. And Little Monkey Chippy was told by his mother, “Never do this, never do that.” We knew the detail about, and Little Monkey Chippy did this. And then there was a lightning strike and then this fire came and then little monkey … And I’m all caught up in Little Monkey Chippy and we never really learned whether he got burned up or not. Somehow the whole message of sexual purity got lost. And this is a true story.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Clifton:

So we’re riding home or Jill and I are taking a couple of kids home, but this one girl, she says, “I just want to know if that monkey lived.” So of course, it’s 25 years later, I still remember the illustration. But that’s one of those cases where it was a long lengthy illustration to bring emotion, but it just distracted from the whole message.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. I think … And I’ve said this to some guys before, I think it’s true. Some illustrations are too good to be used. In other words, it’s so good, so catchy.

Mark Clifton:

Footprints in the sand.

Mark Hallock:

That that’s all they’re going to leave with is going, “Whoa.” This is what I think sometimes with attractional preaching or object lessons, it’s almost like how do you outdo the last one?

Dan Hurst:

Well, yeah.

Mark Hallock:

You know what I mean? Because it’s so good. It’s like, “Dude, you’ve got to listen to this preacher. He does this stuff. He has these illustrations. He might preach from a trampoline.” I mean, crazy stuff. And it’s going, “Dude, how is this pointing people to Christ and the word?”

Mark Clifton:

Chris Pinion’s a friend of mine, and Chris may be listening to this podcast, and he knows, he did it. He’s been on the news. You probably heard about it. You probably didn’t know who he was. He’s a church planter here in Kansas City. He got a tattoo while he was preaching.

Mark Hallock:

No way.

Mark Clifton:

He had a tattoo artist come up. He was doing a sermon and this was going to be-

Mark Hallock:

So while he’s preaching, he’s getting a tattoo.

Mark Clifton:

While he’s preaching, he’s getting a tattoo while he’s preaching. And of course he got on the news and-

Mark Hallock:

Oh, sure.

Mark Clifton:

… all that kind of thing. You can Google it. It’s probably still there.

Mark Hallock:

And so did he, at the end, tie it in somehow?

Mark Clifton:

I would hope. All I know is, all I can remember is he got a tattoo while he was preaching.

Mark Hallock:

He got a tattoo.

Dan Hurst:

Here’s another mistake along the same line is that, “And that reminds me of another story.”

Mark Hallock:

Oh, man.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, don’t do that.

Mark Clifton:

Oh, oh.

Dan Hurst:

Don’t do that.

Mark Hallock:

You weren’t planning on saying, “Oh, I just got to share this one.”

Mark Clifton:

Okay. I got to tell you one more because I realize this podcast-

Mark Hallock:

Of course, we do that in the podcast all the time.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah, I know. We’re making an illustration of how we’re losing ourself in stories.

Okay. Wilbur Noble was an old pastor in Kansas for years and he was just a great lay pastor. He started a lot of churches and he’s close to his probably late 70s, early 80s. And I went to hear him preach. He was starting a little church in Topeka and I went there and I was helping him and he was preaching and he’s talking about, he said, “When I was a kid, we had a dog that chased cars all the time. We couldn’t get that dog from chasing cars.” Of course he said, “We just had Model Ts and Model As.” But he said, “So my dad,” he said, “He took a rag and he tied it to the hubcap, one of those spokes, one of those Model Ts.” He said, “He backed out of the driveway and sure enough, the dog chased it. The dog grabbed onto that rope or that rag on the spoke of the Model T, and man, he just flipped it and broke that dog’s neck and he died. And I don’t know where I was going with that.” I swear. I promise you. I promise you that’s what he did.

Dan Hurst:

Oh my God.

Mark Hallock:

Little kids are crying.

Mark Clifton:

I don’t know where I was going with that. I may not be 80, but I’ve been that way. So you get lost in these stories.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, I know. I know. It’s true.

Mark Clifton:

You go, “How do I make this connection?” I don’t know whether the monkey got saved, but I do know the dog died. So you got to be careful. Illustrations.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, man.

Mark Clifton:

And you got to be careful.

Mark Hallock:

Well, because again, what he says is overusing or … So it obscures or leaves behind the biblical text. That’s the biggest danger in this is you actually, you miss the text. You miss the point of the sermon because the illustration.

It’s like the youth pastor, the true story guy that I knew, this was probably 20 years ago. And he was giving a talk, a youth group and he was getting a haircut the whole time. And the whole time you’re just waiting like, “What’s he going to do?” And he ends the talk and never even says anything about the haircut.

Mark Clifton:

Oh, are you serious?

Mark Hallock:

He just said, “I just knew I’d have their attention the whole time. And I did.” And I’m going, “Okay, dude, we need to have a talk about a philosophy of teaching here.” But anyway, that’s an extreme. But again, the point is we want to preach and teach the text. Illustration should serve that purpose and not the other way around.

Mark Clifton:

As much as you can, it’s good to use biblical illustrations.

Mark Hallock:

Oh yeah, that’s another good point.

Mark Clifton:

You use biblical stories to illustrate the Bible.

Mark Hallock:

Absolutely. And if you’re in the New Testament, this is where … A lot of guys who preach a lot from the New Testament, go to the Old Testament.

Mark Clifton:

That’s right.

Mark Hallock:

You do this really well, Mark, and Spurgeon did.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

Is illustrate from the Old Testament, it’s a way to help teach your people.

Dan Hurst:

Yep. Speaking of Spurgeon.

Mark Clifton:

Yes.

Mark Hallock:

Okay. Number three, speaking for too long.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

What does he say about this?

Dan Hurst:

Well, there’s a great line that he quotes Spurgeon. He says, “Brevity is a virtue within the reach of all of us. Do not let us lose the opportunity of gaining the credit which it brings. If you ask me how you may shorten your sermons, I should say study them better. Spend more time in the study and you’ll need less time in the pulpit.” I love that.

Mark Clifton:

We generally speak the longest when we have the least to say.

Dan Hurst:

Isn’t that true?

Mark Hallock:

Man, that is true.

Mark Clifton:

One of the cringe moments when you’re watching yourself preach is when you realize I’m repeating myself.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, I know. I know.

Mark Clifton:

I had said that and now I’m saying it again and I’m going to wrap it up one more time and I’m repeating myself.

Mark Hallock:

And you know the people know.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. And don’t wear it as a badge of honor that I can preach for 50 minutes.

Mark Hallock:

Say it again, brother.

Mark Clifton:

Don’t wear it as a badge of honor. And don’t wear it as a shame that I only preached for 28. There are some people that really can hold your attention for 50 minutes or an hour.

Mark Hallock:

Very gifted guys.

Mark Clifton:

But they’re very, very few.

Mark Hallock:

I agree, man. I agree.

Mark Clifton:

And I’m not one of them. I’ve heard a lot of you guys preach that are listening to this and you’re not one of them either.

Dan Hurst:

Why did he look at me when he said that?

Mark Clifton:

I don’t know. But preaching too long now, again, being in Istrouma for all these months, they got the big red clock on the back wall, right?

Mark Hallock:

You bet they do.

Mark Clifton:

They do. It’s a countdown clock, right?

Mark Hallock:

They give you 30 minutes, right?

Mark Clifton:

32 with a five-minute grace period.

Mark Hallock:

Okay.

Mark Clifton:

Actually, I can go as long as I want, but I want to be aware of that.

Mark Hallock:

Yes.

Mark Clifton:

It’s important for me to be aware of that. I know you’re going to think, some of you think, well, the Holy Spirit isn’t into this, but having that clock, having that countdown clock. Not just a clock that shows the time, but the actual countdown clock. No, I got eight minutes, six minutes til … Then once it’s so cool, you know this, once it gets to zero, it goes into the red, you’re in the negative. So I know I got to five. But it forces me to be more concise in what I’m saying.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

And realize that I want to make sure what I say matters and that every word’s important and I’m not just rambling.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. Not just wasting words.

Mark Clifton:

Wasting words and preaching too long.

Mark Hallock:

Man, that’s a really good point.

Mark Clifton:

I know it’s been said so many times, guys, but you really do want people to leave thinking, “Man, I wish you could have preached a little longer.” As opposed to, “It was good, but man, it went a little long.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. When is this guy going to be done?

Mark Clifton:

There’s a moment there when you need to be sensitive with the Holy Spirit that this is the time to close this, even if I haven’t got all my points across.

Mark Hallock:

That’s a good point.

Mark Clifton:

The spirit is moving right now. I sense that. Let’s just forget my … I can do that some other time. Let’s follow the Holy Spirit. This is the time to stop. Let’s do that.

Mark Hallock:

That’s good. Okay. We’ve got two more guys. Number four, taking on … Oh boy, this is painful to think about, but it happens. Taking on another man’s mannerisms and/or voice.

Dan Hurst:

You mean like Spurgeon’s little-

Mark Clifton:

Handkerchief.

Dan Hurst:

… handkerchief thing? I don’t know anybody that does that.

Mark Clifton:

I got a polka dot handkerchief, black polka dot handkerchief, because Spurgeon had one. And I don’t know. I keep it in my Bible when I’m preaching and sometimes I got sweaty everywhere-

Mark Hallock:

Sure, you got to use it.

Mark Clifton:

… I get my sweat off. So it was my last sermon I preached at Istrouma, and there’s a place in there where I was going to read half of Lockridge’s thing on my king, that’s my king. This amazing-

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. All the things Jesus is, one after the other, after the other and really getting-

Mark Hallock:

Dude, I watched this, by the way. I watched you do this.

Mark Clifton:

But when you watched me do it, if you’ll notice, I reach in my pockets because I’m looking for that handkerchief.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, you bet you are.

Mark Clifton:

Because I’m going to pull it out. And I realized, man, I left it in the front pew.

Mark Hallock:

You don’t have it.

Mark Clifton:

I don’t have my … And the Lord was like, “You don’t need to do that.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, I know. Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

He was like, “Dude, you were on the borderline anyway with doing what you did. And if you’d have pulled that handkerchief out, it would have been …” So the Lord-

Mark Hallock:

Over the top.

Mark Clifton:

The one time I really wanted to use it on the last Sunday I was there, I couldn’t use it.

Mark Hallock:

The Lord said no.

Mark Clifton:

If you go back and watch that, you’ll see me reach into my pocket thinking, “Where’s that handkerchief, man? I was going to whip it out here.”

Mark Hallock:

I noticed you were doing … But I didn’t know you were going for the handkerchief.

Mark Clifton:

So don’t do what I do.

Dan Hurst:

I’ll bet Jill was howling. I’ll bet she was howling.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, man.

Mark Clifton:

So basically, yeah, don’t let your mannerisms, don’t use somebody else’s mannerisms.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, in somebody’s voice. I heard a guy not long ago, he literally sounded almost like he’d watched … I’m sure he did, hundreds of Adrian Rogers. Adrian Rogers had a very distinct-

Dan Hurst:

Very commanding.

Mark Hallock:

And this guy literally sounded exactly like him.

Mark Clifton:

Or some who sound like R.C. Sproul.

Mark Hallock:

Sproul.

Mark Clifton:

Or Piper.

Mark Hallock:

Or Piper, pick your guy.

Mark Clifton:

You can listen to a guy go … Or Billy Graham back in the day.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, I bet a lot of guys-

Mark Clifton:

Back in the day, there were a lot of guys who were not born in the South, but could sound like Billy Graham when they preached.

Mark Hallock:

Got the mannerisms and the whole … Yeah. So be you, man.

Mark Clifton:

Be yourself.

Mark Hallock:

Be you, dude. Be you.

Mark Clifton:

Number five.

Mark Hallock:

Number five, last one, guys, is this is correctable, but looking at your notes too much. And we’ve talked a lot on this podcast about pros and cons of preaching from a manuscript or not a manuscript. But here’s what … Even though Clifton and I have a couple different approaches, what we both agree with is, man, you can’t just be staring at your notes. You need to preach. And the problem is when you guys think about you listen to a guy and he’s just basically reading his sermon, how does that come off to you?

Dan Hurst:

Well, yeah. Well, you know who somebody who uses notes, preaches from … Actually, I think he preaches from a manuscript is Alistair Begg. But when you watch him, you don’t notice that he’s-

Mark Hallock:

Well, because he knows it, and I’ve talked about that. I mean, I’m a manuscript guy, but that means you’ve got to do extra work to be very familiar with your content so that you’re not just reading the sermon.

Mark Clifton:

Since I was preaching for the same congregation for 15 or 16 months, I actually did … I used a lot more notes there than I normally do.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, did you? Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah. And sometimes even took a binder up with me like that one Sunday I did.

Mark Hallock:

Because it is different when it’s every week.

Mark Clifton:

It is different when it’s every week.

Mark Hallock:

When it’s regular. Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

And you want to make sure you’re really … So I did-

Mark Hallock:

That’s a good point.

Mark Clifton:

I do that. And frankly, many times I’m a little more comfortable these days when I see a guy go up there with notes. Then I think, okay, he’s prepared and he’s ready. Then he’s up there without them.

Mark Hallock:

I know.

Mark Clifton:

But you can have notes. Andy Davis is another guy who preaches from a manuscript, but he doesn’t read it.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, exactly.

Mark Clifton:

I mean, he’s looking at it. You know it’s there, but it’s in his heart. It’s in his mind.

Mark Hallock:

He’s preaching it. Yeah, exactly.

Mark Clifton:

There’s a passion there.

Mark Hallock:

Yes.

Mark Clifton:

He’s not just reading a document.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah.

Mark Clifton:

And I think we got to be very careful-

Mark Hallock:

That’s great.

Mark Clifton:

… not just like reading a document.

Mark Hallock:

Like a lecture.

Mark Clifton:

And sometimes, guys, let’s be honest, especially early on when you’re preaching, that’s a security factor. When you’re looking at your notes instead of looking at the congregation.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s true.

Mark Clifton:

And you hold onto those notes as some sort of security rather than making eye contact with the congregation and being more free like that.

Mark Hallock:

So guys, do the extra work of knowing, being very familiar with your notes. That’s why we always say practice three times, two, three, four times.

Mark Clifton:

Preach it out loud to yourself.

Mark Hallock:

Preach it out loud, listen to your transitions. I mean, preaching takes work. Good preaching takes work. But you don’t want to be so glued to your notes that you’re not with your people.

Mark Clifton:

That’s right.

Mark Hallock:

That’s the whole point is you’re preaching to the people. So those are five things guys.

Mark Clifton:

We got five more coming up next time.

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Dan Hurst:

And not only that, but we have an opportunity to improve our own preaching. We’re learning from this as we go along.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah.

Dan Hurst:

I don’t know how well we’re learning.

Mark Clifton:

I don’t know either.

Dan Hurst:

By the way, I do manuscript and I give … The lady who runs the PowerPoint, I give her my manuscript with the numbers for each PowerPoint slide. And there’ll be anywhere from usually around … It averages around 20 slides per message.

Mark Clifton:

Wow.

Dan Hurst:

And so the other day she says, “Thank you, because I’m trying to follow you on your manuscript.” She said, “The only time that you follow the manuscript is whenever I’m supposed to change the slide, the one sentence.” She says, “I know where you are because you always say the right sentence with the right number.”

Mark Clifton:

I don’t preach with a PowerPoint. People always say-

Dan Hurst:

You don’t?

Mark Clifton:

“Do you have a PowerPoint, Clifton?” I go, “No, I don’t preach for that. I find that a little just not who I am.”

Mark Hallock:

Well, you like to have more freedom.

Mark Clifton:

I do. And generally what I say is after I preach, won’t you just do a PowerPoint on what I said and then I could use it next time?

Dan Hurst:

Like you’re ever going to preach it the same way twice.

All right, that wraps it up. Thank you all so much. Thanks to the North American Mission Board for making it possible for us to do this week after week after week, and we love doing that. We’ll see you next time.

Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this podcast helpful, don’t forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. To learn more about becoming a Replant Pastor or to explore revitalization resources for your church, subscribe to our monthly newsletter at churchreplanters.com.