Loneliness in a Hyper-Connected World: Part 1

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, where we equip pastors to take their churches from declining to thriving by pointing them to a new future and a new hope. Join us weekly for encouragement and practical advice in your pastoring journey.

Dan Hurst:

You guys, I’ve got a question for you. And I’m asking this to everybody that’s listening right now, including Clifton and Hallock here. How friendly, really, how friendly, useful, connected really is your church? This is Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock, who happen to both be here at the same time.

Mark Hallock:

We’re here, man. We’re here.

Dan Hurst:

I’m Dan Hurst. There is Matt McNaughton. Man, your name is tough to say, Matt. We’ll change it to Smith or something. It’d be a whole lot easier. It’d be your stage name. Anyway.

Mark Clifton:

Jill was with me yesterday and we were in the car and I needed to call Matt. So I used the voice thing and I said, “Call Matt McNaughton.” And my voice thing says, “You named two or three Matts,” and it wasn’t the right one.” And I finally said, “No, call Matt Nam.” And so you’re listed on my phone as Matt Nam because Alexa can’t understand Matt McNaughton.

Dan Hurst:

Very confused.

Mark Clifton:

Jill thought that was funny.

Dan Hurst:

Very confused.

Mark Clifton:

So you’re Matt Nam, because they can understand that, because I can’t even pronounce your last name.

Dan Hurst:

All right guys, I was sharing this with the church this past Sunday. We’re talking about some of the roadblocks that we deal with in our spiritual walk. And one of the second roadblocks that the Apostle Paul had to deal with was rejection. When he went back to Jerusalem, the believers there were afraid of him. They didn’t want to have anything to do with him. It was just a type of rejection. We talked about the fact that there is aggressive rejection and there is passive rejection.

And I brought this point up. I don’t even know where this statistic came from, but basically it’s this, that 80% of the people who come to church come because they know somebody there, 20% don’t know somebody who’s there. And I said, “Think about this. There are people who come walking into this church who don’t know anybody in this church. And if we are passively rejecting them, we do that by just ignoring them or we just pay lip service say, ‘Oh, we’re glad you’re here.'”

Mark Hallock:

But they feel no care or love from us.

Dan Hurst:

And I said, “For some people, if we’re not careful, this becomes the loneliest place of their week in church.”

Mark Hallock:

Yep.

Mark Clifton:

And people are lonely.

Dan Hurst:

They are lonely.

Mark Clifton:

Now I know this is an old book and we may or may not put it in the show notes. I’m not sure if there’s stuff in it that we can agree with everything on it, but I’ve read it. Remember the book called Bowling Alone?

Mark Hallock:

Oh, yeah. Dude, that was a great book.

Mark Clifton:

That was a great book actually. In the book Bowling Alone, he talks about the evidence of social decline in America. He interviewed like 500,000 people. Basically in the last few decades, membership in PTA groups, labor unions, fraternal organizations, all down. Those things were huge after the Second World War. Everybody was a member of a lodge or a PTA group or bowling leagues. That’s where the Bowling Alone came from. That people were all engaged in bowling leagues, all of those things. And so it’s been a generational change that World War II generation, they were highly active in community life, highly active.

Mark Hallock:

Isn’t that interesting?

Mark Clifton:

Because that’s just how they grew up, boomers. Not so much this generation, they will all show up at a Starbucks or a coffee shop to work, but they work with their headphones in and their laptops up. They’re not interacting with each other. And so the stresses of modern life where we work 24 hours a day. Back in the day, you worked Mondays through Fridays, 9:00 to 5:00, everybody had the weekends off, everybody had their evenings off. There’s a million reasons, and you ought look at that book Bowling Alone. There’s a million reasons that people do not have significant relationships like they used to in previous decades.

Mark Hallock:

Another observation that he makes in that book, I believe it’s that book, is the shift even in architecture. So think about, so the post World War II generation, my grandpa’s generation, here’s what I remember, going to my grandma and grandpa Hallock’s house. And my grandpa was not an extroverted man, but boy, he’d sit on the front porch all the time. Houses had front porches.

Mark Clifton:

He talks about urban sprawl.

Mark Hallock:

And so now the shift was from the front porch to the back deck.

Mark Clifton:

You were in a more urban environment. I say suburban sprawl. In an urban environment, you were in apartments or townhouses next to each other or flats that had many people in them and you all played in the street together.

Mark Hallock:

Yep. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

Now after the Second World War with suburban sprawl, everybody has their own yard-

Mark Hallock:

Their own little kingdom.

Mark Clifton:

… and own fence and their own kingdom and they stay. So we don’t interact even in the community the way we used to.

Mark Hallock:

It’s wild. It’s wild.

Dan Hurst:

I can pull out of my driveway and there’ll be neighbors out working in their yard. Don’t even bother to look up when I’m backing out and driving away.

Mark Clifton:

Don’t wave or anything.

Dan Hurst:

Don’t wave or anything. And I make it such a point to try to connect with them. “Hey neighbor, how you doing?” But they’re not responsive to that.

Mark Clifton:

So the point of the bowling alone is that we are in a community and a society that’s becoming, even though there are people all around us, we’re more and more isolated and more and more lonely.

Mark Hallock:

Than ever before.

Mark Clifton:

And that’s true, especially for men. But let’s talk about what that impact is on ministry.

Dan Hurst:

By the way, the caveat to all of that is, and it’s in our title, we’re in a hyper connected world.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s the irony.

Mark Clifton:

Isn’t that crazy?

Dan Hurst:

It’s so ironic.

Mark Hallock:

We’re connected than ever and yet we’re more lonely than ever.

Mark Clifton:

And another thing in that book, I love this, because when I was a kid, we had people over our house all the time. There wasn’t a weekend that we didn’t have guests over for dinner or we didn’t go to somebody’s house for dinner. People don’t host dinner parties anymore.

Mark Hallock:

No, you’re right.

Mark Clifton:

I shouldn’t say, that’s an overstatement, but not like they used to.

Mark Hallock:

Not like they used to.

Mark Clifton:

It’s not like what it used to be.

Mark Hallock:

And that’s so true.

Dan Hurst:

So what happens then is that people have more contacts than they’ve ever had before and fewer deep friendships. Why is that?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah. And that’s the first one in this list too. Well, I just think again, it’s one, I think social media and the internet gives us a false sense of intimacy. We think, and this is what’s so sad for younger generations because a lot of them, that’s all they’ve known is friendship by way of the phone, by texting and all these things. And studies just show over and over again that we’re made for actual human contact, real relationship. And so even though people do have a lot of contacts, they don’t have many true deep friendships because here’s the thing about a screen. I can pretend like we’re really close, but the whole time, you don’t really know me and I don’t really know you.

Mark Clifton:

It’s just words.

Mark Hallock:

It’s just words.

Mark Clifton:

And you’re seeing what I want you to know about me.

Mark Hallock:

Me. Exactly. Instagram is the classic of we can put whatever face we want and we want people to like us. We want people to think we’re beautiful. That’s why the whole filter thing, there’s so many things we could talk about. What’s with the filter? The filter is so I can make myself and my life look prettier than it actually is.

Dan Hurst:

You’re talking about like an AI filter?

Mark Hallock:

Whatever. Yeah. It filters the phone, whatever. It’s fake. And yet a lot of people live in that place.

Mark Clifton:

I was thinking the other day when I was in high school and I had a car and I had my best friend was Gary and we wanted to hang out together. So it meant I had to go pick him up or he picked me up in his car and we would go do things together and all. But today, if I wanted to talk to Gary and if I was in high school, I’d just do it online. I’d just text him or-

Mark Hallock:

Just text him.

Mark Clifton:

But back then I had to actually go be with him or he’d go be with me and we would do stuff together and we would get in trouble together and have fun together and do all kinds of things. And I think because it’s so easy to sit in your room and talk to somebody on your phone, it makes it less common to actually have to cross town, spend some time together, do things like that. And I think you develop those deep friendships when you spend that time together.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Mark Clifton:

So we’re not doing it like we used to. And we need to know that people coming to our churches are probably less connected to the serious friendships than other generations have been.

Mark Hallock:

Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

And how do we respond to that? And how do we develop relationships and friendships even within our churches? And frankly, a lot of our churches, unfortunately, even our neighborhood churches, people don’t live in the same neighborhood anymore. They drive from all different parts of town. The kids go to different schools or some kids are homeschooled, some kids go to public schools. Again, I know y’all get tired of hearing me say this, but when I was a kid, basically you went to church in your neighborhood for the most part. And everybody in that church went to the same elementary school and high school. So you had all those connections in place.

Mark Hallock:

You grew up together.

Mark Clifton:

You grew up together. That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

Well, that kind of goes along with number two. Church has become an event as opposed to a family.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that is really true. It’s an event we go to versus a family we belong to, a family. And, again, that’s imagery that’s just biblical imagery. We’re the family of God. We’re the body of Christ. This is where it’s on us. I think as pastors, we’re in a battle here against a culture that is just fine with all this, with keeping things at a distance. You got to fight for community. I mean, because I think in our flesh… And I don’t care, I’m an extrovert. In my flesh, I still think I would rather isolate. If I really have the choice, it’s hard to turn away Netflix and a pizza getting ordered to my house. You know what I mean?

Mark Clifton:

Yeah.

Mark Hallock:

So I’m saying this isn’t just an introvert extrovert thing. And I think the more we do it’s like a drug. It’s even more addictive. And so point-

Dan Hurst:

You mean the more we isolate?

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, the more we isolate.

Mark Clifton:

Look, it is amazing to me. Be careful because we just had a podcast where we say we shouldn’t talk about our personal lives and our spouses without their permission. But anyway, it’s amazing to me how Mrs. C and I will be at home in the living room or family room and she’s on her iPhone and I’m on my iPhone. And before you know it, we’ve sat there and I’m not making this up, 45 minutes or more, we haven’t talked to each other. I mean, she’s looking over quilt stuff on Facebook and things like that. And I’m looking at watch collections and things. There’s nothing really wrong with that, but decades ago we wouldn’t have that opportunity to be in the same room and be so engaged in something so separate. And I think that’s what we see in our culture. And so when we’re talking about churches, you cannot just say, “Coming to an event will make community.” It does not.

Mark Hallock:

Right. No, exactly.

Mark Clifton:

So you’ve got to be intentional about how do we make serious connections? And look, lean into social media for your church. I get that. Have a Facebook page and all that, but that’s not enough.

Mark Hallock:

It’s not enough.

Mark Clifton:

And so especially in a normative sized church, guys, how can we create serious bonded relationships among people? And Dan, you mentioned something about visitors a minute ago. I want you to share that. That was really good about the 80/20 kind of thing.

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, he started with that.

Dan Hurst:

Yeah. And the whole idea is that so many people who come to church and the church becomes the loneliest place of their life that week.

Mark Hallock:

Which is so sad.

Dan Hurst:

Because of the passive rejection with people who just don’t really reach out and connect with them.

Mark Clifton:

Yeah, exactly.

Dan Hurst:

But see, if you’re not connected with each other in the church anyway, then why would you connect with a visitor?

Mark Hallock:

Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

Yep. And, again, people walk into a church and if they don’t know anybody, it can seem like a pretty cold place. And frankly, guys, a lot of our church buildings are way too big for the congregations that we have now. So when people walk in, they may sit completely by themselves, which is always a terrible thing. You need to help your people understand, if you have some first time guests that show up, somebody needs to go sit in the same pew or same row with them so they’re not there alone, for one thing. And you need to talk to your people about how to engage in normal, introductory conversations.

Mark Hallock:

That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

And not weird ones. We could do a whole nother podcast on that.

Mark Hallock:

And I hear guys say, “Well, I don’t know. When people come in, don’t they kind of want to be by themselves?” No, they don’t.

Mark Clifton:

No, they really don’t.

Mark Hallock:

Assume they don’t. They’re coming to your church for a reason. Err on the side of pursuing them, greeting them, sitting beside them. I think, somebody should ask them to lunch every week. You get a visitor?

Mark Clifton:

Yeah, I think that’s true.

Mark Hallock:

Who’s asking them for lunch, man? If they say, “No, we’d rather not.” Fine.

Mark Clifton:

At least they’ve been invited.

Mark Hallock:

At least they’ve been invited. Every time. How are we a counter-cultural community as a church, as the body of Jesus Christ, if we aren’t loving like that? We’re no different than going to Target or Starbucks. You get the same kind of level of friendship with the barista as you do at the church.

Dan Hurst:

And I think that for every person, there’s a different way that you connect. I mean, we can tell them, “Oh, go over and say hello to somebody.” And half of the time that’s the wrong thing to do because some of the way those people greet each other is-

Mark Clifton:

It’s not good.

Dan Hurst:

It’s really spooky.

Mark Clifton:

You need to coach your people on what to say and what not to say. You really do.

Dan Hurst:

But it has to be very much from the heart. The choice has to be like, “I really do appreciate the fact that you’re here.”

Mark Hallock:

And listen, dude, it’s all awkward. We talk about this. It’s all awkward. And what do we say? You got to lean into the awkward. The church is going to look weird. That may feel weird. Don’t let Satan hijack that. Because what Satan does is say, “You’re going to turn them off.” And I say, “Listen, your fear of turning them off is what’s going to prevent you and your church from ever turning them on. You’ve got to trust in the love of Christ and the gospel and be willing to be a little weird.” I’m not saying be crazy, strange guy.

Mark Clifton:

So I got this great story. I won’t tell you who it is, because I don’t have their permission, but it’s a church that was predominantly white, although it was in an ever growing African American black community. And there were a few black people attending, but not many. And this one day, an older black lady walks in the back of the church to come in. And so an older lady from the church saw her coming by herself and went up and just introduced herself and put her arm on her shoulder and said, “Would you like to come sit by me?”

And the black lady said, “Well, sure.” She said, “We went down to the second row. We sat on the second row.” And the African American lady said, “This white lady introduced me to everybody around there as her friend. This is my new friend, Catherine. Catherine, this is so, so, so.” She said, “After the worship was over, the pastor came down and gave his mother a hug.” That was the pastor’s mother. She said, “The pastor’s mother brought me up there.” And of course she joined the church and she’s been engaged and involved. That’s what we’re talking about.

Mark Hallock:

That’s what we’re talking about, man.

Mark Clifton:

That’s what we’re talking about. Imagine that. You just see somebody walking in, “Hey, would you like to sit by me?” They’re not going to say no. And then when you sit there, you say, “By the way, this is Catherine. I just met her. Catherine, this is Gail. And this is… ” It’s so simple.

Mark Hallock:

That’s so good.

Mark Clifton:

I think it was Stetzer who said it. He probably took it from somebody, but nonetheless, it’s a good statement. People say we’re a friendly church. People are not looking for a friendly church. People are looking for friends.

Dan Hurst:

Exactly.

Mark Clifton:

And there’s a difference. Friendly churches, “Hey, we’re glad you’re here.” Friends is, “Would you like to come sit by me? Let me introduce you to some people here. We really do care about you.”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s really good.

Mark Clifton:

So with knowing how lonely and disconnected people are, we’ve got to be intentional about that, guys.

Mark Hallock:

And remember this, let me say this. You’re sitting there in your church, you want to grow your church. Listen, your church is not going to grow by masses of people. It’s going to grow one life at a time. And so every life, man… I’ve heard this, we share this in our church. If somebody is sitting by themselves and they’re new, that is an emergency situation, right? You’re going to grow your church, you guys, by doing what Clifton just said, one life at a time. One family that comes, dude, we are going to love them, care for them, encourage them. Don’t expect God to bring 20 new families if you can’t care for one.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, man.

Mark Hallock:

Do you know what I’m saying?

Dan Hurst:

Hello.

Mark Hallock:

And so you care for one and the next week, maybe another comes. Maybe they don’t. Maybe in a month another comes and you love them, you pursue them, you encourage them, it’s one at time.

Mark Clifton:

A pastor of a normative size church. If you are up there, and you know everybody. In fact, if it’s a normative sized church, you can hear people sing. You know their voices. That’s how well you know them all. You see somebody come for the first time and they’ve got some children, maybe even some preschool aged children, then what you do is during some announcement time, you just simply say something like, “We’re so glad you’re all here today. We love this church. We love our family. We love each other. And one of the things we do, we love to have children in our worship service.”

Don’t point out them and say, “We know you’re new.” Just if you see some people come with new kids, just make a point and casually, as though it’s something very natural-

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, “We love kids.”

Mark Clifton:

… and say, “Among other things, we love to have kids in our worship service. And if you want to keep your kids with you, this is a great place to do it. If you want to have it, we do have a preschool care for three and under, if that’s okay too, but it’s totally up to you because don’t we love having kids in here?”

Mark Hallock:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark Clifton:

That reduces that person’s stress about what happens. “Should I bring my kids in? Should I take them to the nursery?” Because most first time guests are not going to want to take their kids to a nursery they don’t know.

Dan Hurst:

That’s exactly true.

Mark Clifton:

So give them freedom and please, I mean I had a lady, she meant well, but we had a first time guest come with a toddler and the first thing she said is, “Oh, we have a nursery back here for him,” as if you have to take him back there. And I could just see panic on this mother’s face like, “I’m not taking him back there.”

Dan Hurst:

By the way, Hallock, I pulled your little thing, the little thing with kids that you do, the children and they make noise.

Mark Hallock:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Don’t you love that?

Dan Hurst:

I did that. It was a brand new mother. She was not a new mother. She was a brand new person visitor and she had a little baby with her and the baby got fussy and everything. And I could tell that she was just, “Oh no.”

Mark Hallock:

I know.

Dan Hurst:

And she got up and start walking. I said, “Hey, say, whoa, whoa, whoa.” I said, “Don’t you guys love the sound of a child at worship?”

Mark Hallock:

Amen. That’s great, bud. I love it.

Dan Hurst:

I said, “Can you imagine what Jesus would’ve said for a child?” I said, “Don’t. We love that child. We’re delighted to have the youth.”

Mark Hallock:

I bet she felt so much-

Dan Hurst:

“I love that sound in this church. I want more babies crying in the church. Don’t you?”

Mark Hallock:

Amen. Amen. That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

And after the service, I mean, she was crowded with people.

Mark Hallock:

Oh, I bet she was.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, it was awesome.

Mark Hallock:

That’s awesome, man.

Mark Clifton:

We’re running out of time here.

Mark Hallock:

Let’s do this in the second part.

Mark Clifton:

Let me say one more thing. I was on a flight the other day. It gave me a great idea. It was a Southwest flight and it was coming out of New Orleans. And this pilot, he had a sack of beignets from… What do you call the place, the beignet place in New Orleans?

Mark Hallock:

Oh, New Orleans downtown.

Mark Clifton:

Oh, come on. Oh, come on.

Dan Hurst:

My mind went blank. My mind went blank.

Mark Clifton:

What’s the beignet place? Look it up.

Dan Hurst:

Everybody knows.

Mark Clifton:

I know, but I’m not going to be able to continue the story till we find out. Anyway, he had a whole sack of these beignets because they sell them in the airport. There’s a place there that sells them. Cafe Du Monde.

Dan Hurst:

There it is.

Mark Clifton:

So it’s the Cafe Du Monde beignets. And I’m thinking, and he’s just kind of randomly handing, “Would you like one? Would you like one?” The pilot, he bought these himself.

Mark Hallock:

Are you serious?

Mark Clifton:

He’s kind of handing these out. Oh yeah, yeah. We get on the plane and he kind of walks around. He sees this nine-year-old boy. And I noticed he talked to the nine-year-old boy. The next thing I know, the nine-year-old boy is up by the cockpit with him, and it comes time to give the announcements. And the pilot says, “Normally, this is where the flight attendant gives announcements, but you don’t listen to them anyway.” So he said, “I’ve got a wonderful young man here, and he’s going to do our announcements for us.”

He gave him the microphone and he told the boy what to say, that we’re flying to so-and-so, the weather is so-and-so, the temperature so-and-so. It was so cute. And he said, “If we have turbulence, please keep your seat belts fastened.” And then the pilot would whisper in his ear, and the little boy said, “If we have turbulence, it’s not the pilot’s fault.” It was just the cutest thing in the world, and everybody applauded. I thought, you don’t do it all the time, but you got a nine or 10 or 12-year-old kid in your church, let them give the announcement some Sunday morning. Wouldn’t that be cool?

Mark Hallock:

Oh, I love it. Yeah, that’s so cool.

Mark Clifton:

Bring them up there and say they’re going to read the announcements.

Mark Hallock:

Absolutely.

Mark Clifton:

Why not?

Mark Hallock:

I love it.

Mark Clifton:

I mean, it would just make everybody say this is a family.

Mark Hallock:

Amen. That’s right.

Mark Clifton:

We all love it.

Mark Hallock:

That’s what a community is.

Mark Clifton:

I’m going to do that sometime. Wouldn’t it be cool?

Mark Hallock:

Dude, I love it.

Dan Hurst:

Oh, I’m stealing that. Totally stealing that.

Mark Clifton:

It was a great idea. Bring a nine-year-old kid, let him give the announcements. Everybody listened. Everybody laughed.

Mark Hallock:

Of course they did. They loved it.

Mark Clifton:

It was really cool.

Mark Hallock:

That’s really cool.

Dan Hurst:

Okay. So we’re going to wrap this up and continue this next time.

Mark Hallock:

Yep. That’s right.

Dan Hurst:

Because we want to continue talking about how do you deal with loneliness in your church in a hyper-connected world? That’s a really, really critical thing. So we’ll continue that discussion. Thank you, North American Mission Board. You guys rock. You guys rock. And we say that because you let us do this.

Mark Clifton:

That’s true.

Dan Hurst:

And if you didn’t let us do this, we wouldn’t say that, but we do think you rock. So thank you very much. We’ll see you next time.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for joining us today on Revitalize and Replant with Mark Clifton and Mark Hallock. This podcast is brought to you by the North American Mission Board, where we help dying or struggling churches regain health for the glory of God and the good of their communities. If you found this podcast helpful, don’t forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. To learn more about becoming a Replant pastor or to explore revitalization resources for your church, subscribe to our monthly newsletter at churchreplanters.com.